uncrediblehallq:

Reply to a post by nostalgebraist with vague TNC spoilers, going to slightly-less-vague-spoiler back:

Keep reading

Keep reading

injygo:

nostalgebraist:

A blogger described TNC as “definitely Gray Tradition stuff,” and I didn’t know what that meant, so I Googled it and whoa:

So, the books of the Gray Tradition tend to:

Have an intrusive narrator, even one who appears as a supporting character in the story.

Be a metafictional narrative – one that points out that it’s a story, foregrounds fictional contrivances, features existing fictional characters, is about the power of storytelling.

Explore philosophical issues, usually ‘large’ ones such as the existence of God, the nature of reality or what it is to be human, rather than everyday ethical dilemmas.

Be written by men.

Have a protagonist who starts in the mundane world, even a hyper-mundane one. He either lives in some grimy, dark city or occasionally a faceless suburb. Their life is one of routine, although it’s often monotonous rather than actively dangerous.

The protagonist is introspective – a Hamlet type: pessimistic, self-analytical, someone with an elaborate imaginative life, who feels trapped by duty.

[…]

Books are important – often as artefacts of a time before the current system was in place, but other books can represent the official (or accepted) account of reality. Unlike television reports or computer files, books can not be edited or amended.

[…]

Characters play strategy games, often chess, and see the game board as a microcosm of real life.

[…]

There is mysticism, but pains are taken to explain that this is not irrationality. Magic represents an alternative operating system for the universe, or an extremely advanced technology. It operates through ritual. The author of the book believes – or at least has said in interview, which of course needn’t always be the same thing – that they believe there’s some truth in this as a worldview.

The protagonist undergoes some profound and permanent physical transformation, often disfiguring or at least which leaves them unable to pass as a normal human. They often choose to do this, even though they don’t (can’t) understand all the implications until the transformation is complete.The protagonist often develops some psychic ability: precognition, telepathy or some form of mind control. The implication is that the protagonist is the first homo superior – the next stage of human development.

[…]

The protagonist comes to see beyond the everyday world, sees a vision of our place in the universe and instantly understands that we are, as Plato said, shadows on the cave wall and that there is a large reality or series of realities.

[…]

Some form of drug is often employed to get to this realm. If not, there’s a literal doorway.

[…]

The books often have utopian themes. We see a better society, or even a plan to enact utopia in our world.They are violent. There are disasters and wars that kill millions, the protagonist often fights hand-to-hand battles. He, or at least his allies, often have no compunction about killing. (One of the things the hero must do, in fact, is lose his compunction to kill). Building a better world inevitably means destroying the old one – many will die.

(Quoted from a follow-up to this post)

This reads a lot like a horoscope - plenty of sorta kinda exclusive statements that seem more specific than they are. I think TNC is part of a definite “genre” or “lineage”, and some of the details in the description seem spot on (alienated, abstruse male narrator; author is male; multiple levels of metafiction; story has ideas that are Extremely Powerful) but others seem like they’re describing a completely different kind of book. The fact that there are ellipses also makes me think that someone is selecting just those that seem to correspond best and leaving out others.

The selector was me; you can see the whole list at the link behind the words “follow-up” in the whole post.  I think you’re right that the Forer Effect explains part of what’s happening here, but on the other hand I have a hard time thinking of any books or stories that fit the list better than TNC does, which is the thing that most surprised me.

(via injygo)

uncrediblehallq:

nostalgebraist:

I hate feeling this way about such a cheap (and not wholly deliberate) trick but it’s so much fun seeing a bunch of internet posts about the TNC, its ending, whether people think the ending can be “salvaged” somehow, various (sometimes out-there) interpretive frameworks that might help, etc.

It’s just like in the story!!!  And the thing in the story was also called The Northern Caves oh my god soooooo meta

How not wholly deliberate was it?

(Just finished TNC, liked all of it except chapter 25, but something like this excuse occurred to me.)

(Vague spoilers)

Keep reading

(via uncrediblehallq)

A blogger described TNC as “definitely Gray Tradition stuff,” and I didn’t know what that meant, so I Googled it and whoa:

So, the books of the Gray Tradition tend to:

Have an intrusive narrator, even one who appears as a supporting character in the story.

Be a metafictional narrative – one that points out that it’s a story, foregrounds fictional contrivances, features existing fictional characters, is about the power of storytelling.

Explore philosophical issues, usually ‘large’ ones such as the existence of God, the nature of reality or what it is to be human, rather than everyday ethical dilemmas.

Be written by men.

Have a protagonist who starts in the mundane world, even a hyper-mundane one. He either lives in some grimy, dark city or occasionally a faceless suburb. Their life is one of routine, although it’s often monotonous rather than actively dangerous.

The protagonist is introspective – a Hamlet type: pessimistic, self-analytical, someone with an elaborate imaginative life, who feels trapped by duty.

[…]

Books are important – often as artefacts of a time before the current system was in place, but other books can represent the official (or accepted) account of reality. Unlike television reports or computer files, books can not be edited or amended.

[…]

Characters play strategy games, often chess, and see the game board as a microcosm of real life.

[…]

There is mysticism, but pains are taken to explain that this is not irrationality. Magic represents an alternative operating system for the universe, or an extremely advanced technology. It operates through ritual. The author of the book believes – or at least has said in interview, which of course needn’t always be the same thing – that they believe there’s some truth in this as a worldview.

The protagonist undergoes some profound and permanent physical transformation, often disfiguring or at least which leaves them unable to pass as a normal human. They often choose to do this, even though they don’t (can’t) understand all the implications until the transformation is complete.The protagonist often develops some psychic ability: precognition, telepathy or some form of mind control. The implication is that the protagonist is the first homo superior – the next stage of human development.

[…]

The protagonist comes to see beyond the everyday world, sees a vision of our place in the universe and instantly understands that we are, as Plato said, shadows on the cave wall and that there is a large reality or series of realities.

[…]

Some form of drug is often employed to get to this realm. If not, there’s a literal doorway.

[…]

The books often have utopian themes. We see a better society, or even a plan to enact utopia in our world.They are violent. There are disasters and wars that kill millions, the protagonist often fights hand-to-hand battles. He, or at least his allies, often have no compunction about killing. (One of the things the hero must do, in fact, is lose his compunction to kill). Building a better world inevitably means destroying the old one – many will die.

(Quoted from a follow-up to this post)

Today in children’s fantasy authors who wrote awkward, over-complicated final books that no one likes – not even (most of) their rabid fans: Lewis Carroll.

Googling “don’t go into the caves” to look for stuff about TNC mostly turns up people warning other people not to go into literal caves, which is entertaining in its own way, really