mind viruses about body viruses
@slatestarscratchpad (thread clipped for length, responding to this)
First of all, thank you for the the thoughtful and charitable response.
Re: my overall message
Second of all, yeah, my post is not too clear on a lot of things and went through some message drift as I was writing. The message I had in mind when I started was 100% about being more careful in curation, not about doing independent work.
Then I ended up spinning this big theory of why curation was not being done carefully. Roughly, I hypothesized that – although there is a large volume of material being produced – very little of it would qualify for curation under normal circumstances. Either because the quality is too low (e.g. obviously bad amateur pet theories) or because the format is too indigestible (e.g. convoluted high-context twitter threads that are hard to even permalink clearly). Hence, some of us are lowering our usual curation bars just to let anything through.
Since “maybe don’t curate anything at all” felt underwhelming as a recommendation, I added a suggestion that we could try improving the supply side. I didn’t really mean that more independent work of any sort is good, since as you say we are glutted with independent work. I meant more independent work good enough to pass even “peacetime” thresholds for curation, stuff that very clearly shows its work, collects scattered expert observations into an easily digestible whole without oversimplifying, doesn’t rely on misleading inflammatory phrases to get your attention, etc.
(I do think your masks post falls in this category, and thank your for writing it.)
Maybe the supply-side point is wrong – maybe, as you say in your final para, there are enough good takes out there and the limiting factor is finding and spreading them. I don’t have a strong opinion either way there. What I do see is the signal-boosting of stuff which I personally find “iffy” but would maybe provisionally endorse in the absence of anything better. If better work is being done, we really need to start curating that instead. If not, then whoever is capable of produce better work needs to produce it, and then we need to curate it.
Re: my objections to recent SSC posts (big picture)
Like I said, I got carried away with grand theorizing as I wrote. But the original impetus for me writing the post was very simple and concrete: I read the “Hammer and dance” section in your latest post and was frustrated by it.
Taken together with my frustration about your previous discussion of Bach, it felt like there was a pattern where you were both sharing and endorsing some things without clearly understanding them or being able to summarize them adequately.
I worried that these endorsements would aid an information cascade. But also, “an information cascade is happening” seemed like a relatively charitable option among potential explanations for the pattern. That is, conditional on “Scott is endorsing this thing he doesn’t really understand,” your action is more defensible if it’s supported by an impression that many independent observers are converging on the same endorsement, rather than if it’s completely based on your (by hypothesis, insufficient) personal assessment.
But this “more defensible” reading still isn’t defensible enough. When these decisions are being made on intellectual trust, and some of that trust is not well founded (e.g. the trust I suspect many people place in SSC on this topic), we are likely to see quick formation of consensus far beyond what is epistemically licensed.
Okay, you might say, but what’s the alternative – just sharing nothing? I agree with what you wrote here:
If I stay inside and don’t spread the actual coronavirus, I’ve trivially made everyone’s lives better. If I shut up and don’t spread any intellectual memes, then that just means that people’s thoughts are being shaped by the set of everyone except me. This is good if I’m worse than average, bad if I’m better than average. Or to put it another way, I’m making a net contribution if I signal-boost true/important things disproportionately often compared to their base rate […].
This is true if we model you as a “pure transmitter” who propagates ideas without modifying them in the process. What I’m worried about, though, is ideas acquiring an ever-growing halo of credibility/consensus as they’re endorsed by individually credible people who cite all the other credible people who believe them, etc.
As I’m writing this, I realize this is a key thing I didn’t adequately emphasize in OP: the concern isn’t about mere passing on of information, it’s about the side effects that can occur as it’s passed on. This means my metaphor of an “information epidemic” just like a disease was, although entertainingly meta, not actually accurate or helpful.
I would be happy with a bare link to Pueyo’s or even Bach’s pieces, without explicit endorsement, perhaps just with a note like “seems interesting but I can’t evaluate it.” (You have said roughly that about many other things, and I approve of that.) I would also be happy with a detailed “more than you want to know” type analysis of any of these pieces.
What I am not happy with is a link with a rider saying you endorse it, that the smart people you’re reading endorse it, that it’s the new consensus, etc., without an accompanying deep dive or evidence of good individual vetting. When iterated, this is a cascade.
Re: my objections to recent SSC posts (specifics)
Here’s are the concrete cases I object to, which made me think I was seeing a bad pattern.
First, here is how you originally glossed Bach’s article in the 3/19 links post:
An article called Flattening The Curve Is A Deadly Delusion has been going around this part of the Internet, saying that it’s implausible to say R0 will ever be exactly 1, so you’re either eradicating the disease (good) or suffering continued exponential growth (bad) without a “flat curve” being much of a possibility.
I won’t explain here why this is not accurate, since I already wrote an SSC comment to that effect. Shortly after I posted my comment, you modified what’s in the post to say something more accurate which also sounded much like the gloss I wrote in my comment. (I guessed that this was a reaction to my comment, although I could be wrong.)
Although I appreciate that you made the correction, the damage was done: I was convinced that you had shared the Bach article without understanding it. If you later came to understand it and still thought it was share-worthy, that’s fine in itself, but understanding was apparently not necessary for sharing. Further, this called the other Coronalinks into question a la Gell-Mann amnesia: if there’s an error in the one case I happen to have already scrutinized for my own reasons, there are likely some errors in those I haven’t.
Then, in the 3/27 links post, you wrote:
I relayed some criticism of a previous Medium post, Flattening The Curve Is A Deadly Delusion, last links post. In retrospect, I was wrong, it was right (except for the minor math errors it admitted to), and it was trying to say something similar to this. There is no practical way to “flatten the curve” except by making it so flat that the virus is all-but-gone, like it is in South Korea right now. I think this was also the conclusion of the Imperial College London report that everyone has been talking about.
This appears to be an explicit endorsement of the entire article, except the “minor math errors.” That is, “it was right (except for the minor math errors it admitted to)” implies “everything that was not one of the minor math errors was right.”
I don’t know how to square this with your comments on Bach in the post I’m responding to (I broadly agree with those comments, FWIW). You describe being initially confused by Bach’s article, then only understanding it after reading other things that made the same point better. If Bach’s article is confusing, and there are better substitutes, why continue to tout Bach’s article as something “right” and worth reading?
Perhaps a more useful way to say that is: it sounds like you are doing two separate things. You’re reading articles, and you’re forming a mental model of the situation. The model can update even when re-reading the same article, if it happens you come to understand it better. If Bach’s article confused you, but it and things like it eventually caused a useful update to your mental model, then the valuable piece of information you have to transmit is the content of that model update, not the confusing and misleading texts from which you eventually, with effort, distilled that update. Sharing the texts with endorsement will force others through the same confusion at best, and permanently confuse them at worst.
Remember, there is a lot of stuff in the Bach article beyond the one fact about how low the line is. I too did not know how low the line was until I read Bach, and in that sense Bach’s meme – including its inflammatory, thus viral, title – was a kind of success. But it’s a success at transmitting one fact which we didn’t know but every epidemiologist did.
We can take this fact on board and proceed, without – for instance – co-signing an article that explicitly advocates lockdown to stop geographic spread (i.e. creating effectively disease-free zones) as the only solution that will work, something not recommended in any of the ICL or Harvard papers, insofar as I’ve read and understood them.
Closing comments
I realize this is likely to sound like I’m picking nits with phrasing, or perhaps like fixating on a case where you said I was wrong and bloviating until you concede I was “right.”
If I’m kind of unduly fixated on Bach’s article, well … I guess I just think Bach’s article was really bad, although it happened to teach many of us a 101-level fact for the first time. I may be more confident in this judgment than you, but it doesn’t sound like you were incredibly impressed either – Bach was the first person you saw saying a true thing you didn’t understand until people said it less badly.
If the best sources for basic information are this polluted with badness, then the supply-side is really messed up and someone less inadequate needs to step up and fix it. Meanwhile, we should acknowledge the badness and accord no points for merely showing up, because that will mislead people and redistribute a maxed-out attention budget towards the consumption of misleading material.
Or, if there are better sources out there, they really need to be boosted and actively suggested as substitutes for their worse counterparts. Until Carl Bergstrom gets a Medium account, the best distiller/synthesizer available who writes in a digestible format might well be Pueyo, and his confidence + lack of domain background make me wary. And he’s the best – there are worse ones. In relative terms these people may be the best we have, but absolute terms are the ones that matter, and the ones we should apply and communicate.
You are already forming your own model, distinct from these writers’, and in my opinion almost certainly better. That model could be valuable. Promoting worse models as stand-ins for it is not valuable. If your defense of Bach is that he caused you to update a piece of your model, then you are not saying Bach is right – you’re saying, like it or not, that you are.
















